member for 24 weeks 5 days
Recently Jay Leno stood on a street corner and asked Americans walking by if they knew what the national anthem is. Most people had random answers and didn't know. There was ONE rocker dude that actually sang the whole thing (I was impressed).
This brings me to the topic of what it means to be an American citizen and assimilate in this country. If a person chooses to come live here, they should assimilate into the culture. I have friends and have met several that have immigrated here and became American citizens.
We are a country of freedom, prosperity, and capitalism, therefore, that has made us the greatest country in the world (and why so many have made this their new home). Many nationalities immigrate to our country year after year, yet there is only one nationality that we seem to bend toward accommodating their language. WHY? The original Ellis Island immigrants were so grateful just to be able to come here, they made it their goals to learn the language, the customs (and often even changed their name), and appreciated their new country enough to become a legal citizen. This value and trend has been lost.
I have lived in various countries in my life. I learned to speak Spanish when I lived in Honduras and Bolivia. If we wanted to go to the market or interact with the local businesses (including the dentist or doctor), we had to speak their language. There was more of an exception when I lived in Korea (because we lived on the US Army base in Seoul), but there were times when we ventured into the downtown shopping district and it was very difficult to communicate unless we had an interpreter. I graduated high school in Rome, Italy - I desperately wanted to learn their language because it was mostly so much fun to speak. But it was also much easier to take public transportation, go shopping, and tour all of the fantastic historical sites.
A friend recently criticized me because while I have this opinon/viewpoint, she feels it is contradictory that I continue to accommodate those that don't speak English by speaking to them in Spanish. I understand that point of view; however, I do make every effort to show the non-English speakers that it is to their benefit to learn the language because not everything translates exactly, and there aren't that many in my profession that can provide them with full understanding of what they are buying. Further, because our society has made it so easy NOT to learn our language, it is not easy for one person (me) to force the assimilation. From a more superficial standpoint, it creates opportunity for me to grow my business in that market segment because I am then a trustworthy and reliable source. But the bigger concept of learning and understanding the native language is that you do get the jobs, understand contracts, your doctor, your banker, your mortgage, etc. It is an advantage.
With that said, I am getting more and more irritated to dial a business and have to press "1 for English or 2 for Spanish." What about the Asians, Europeans, etc. who are also moving here and don't speak Spanish? I guess they HAVE to learn English (or will Spanish be their alternate language?). I have a dear friend who's father immigrated here from China - he learned US business, the language, raised his family here, and was a proud US citizen.
When and why was this pride in becoming an American citizen lost? It's my belief that the more allowances we make, the more we lose America & why those people wanted to come here in the first place.
If people who only speak Spanish cannot be happy with America as it was created (English as the "official language," respect the flag, and become a legal citizen), then they should stay put or go back to where they came from. They should have pride in being a part of this new country that they CHOSE to make their new home. After living in so many different (and mostly 3rd world countries), I am damn grateful to be a US citizen and live in this country. I pray we maintain it as it was intended.
Comments
Login or register to post a commentI completely agree with you
I completely agree with you that English should be the official language of the US and that we should not print any sort of government document in any other language. Courts should not be required to hire interpreters etc.
(You should see the city government docs in San Francisco... not only English and Spanish, but also about 6 dialects of Chinese!! Half the rain forest is in the San Francisco DMV!!!)
But on the other hand, as a Capitalist country, it is the duty of business owners to do whatever is possible to create the largest profit possible for their stockholders... so if the majority of people in an area speak Spanish, than the businesses are legally bound to offer services in Spanish to increase profits... where is that line drawn?
I sincerely ask that question... as a business owner, if I thought it would increase our business 10 fold by interpreting our product/services in Spanish, you bet I would! Even though I feel that everyone here should speak English...
When I travel there is so much posted in English it makes it easier for me to spend my money... but I'll bet any kind of money that if I were thrown in jail in France they wouldn't bend over backwards to hire me an interpreter!! My guess is that they would throw me a dictionary and wish me "Bon Chance!"
"Love Well. Love Wisely."
www.JustInCaseInc.com
Well ladies, I'll have to
Well ladies, I'll have to say I strongly disagree with all of the viewpoints shared thus far. I believe every person who moves to another country is aware of the fact that if you speak the dominant language of that country (in our case, English) you are at an advantage in many ways-academically, economically, etc. One's access to learning English in our country is another story, especially if your main focus is providing the basics for your family.
Certainly it is easier to remain speaking Spanish (for example) if everyone in your community speaks Spanish, but this idea of a "forced assimilation" is in my opinion borderline fascist, very anti-American, and I'm gonna say it...racist. English is not a superior language, and we are not a superior country if we attempt to make everyone speak it, which would be an impossible ideal to enforce anyway. I mean what kind of country would we be if we didn't have translators in the courtroom? What kind of prisons would we have if people couldn't be defended? What kind of people would we be if we assumed that people who don't speak English are "illegal" and therefore, not human enough to deserve due process? You might as well take the Constitution and wipe your ass with it, if you want that kind of America.
America isn't an English speaking country that has a sprinkling of "others" who annoyingly speak something else. America is MADE UP OF and defined by multi-nationals who speak many languages. The dominant language is English, and the 2nd most frequently spoken language is Spanish. Americans would be less resentful if they accepted that fact.
I live in Los Angeles where there is literally a little Armenia, Korea Town, China Town, Thai Town, 40% Latino population, and probably more nation inspired communities than I know of. From what I have seen and experienced most immigrants (first generation) are either fluently bilingual (at least), trying to learn English, or not English speaking because they are either very old, or a new migrant.
I think it is an insulting myth toward immigrants to assume that they do not WANT to learn English, or don't WANT to become American citizens, and it kind of turns my stomach when such sentiment is directed toward Spanish speaking Americans. Honestly, I never gave such issues a second thought until I moved to California. California, and much of America functions on the breaking backs of Spanish speaking Americans. I just don't understand why English speaking Americans harbor such disdain towards people who move here and retains the culture, language, customs, etc, of their country of origin.
Furthermore, a minimal investigation of assimilation throughout American History will reveal that unless your skin is white, assimilation has generally not worked for non-white Americans, even those who speak English!
I firmly believe that we are on the verge of a paradigm shift in the awareness of our national identity. We are the only country in the world that is made up entirely of immigrants. Some have been here longer (and for more generations) than others. It has been that way ever since Native Americans were raped and pillaged for this capitalist freedom land. We can't forget that part of our national heritage, because if we do, we just might repeat the mistakes of the past that caused early Americans to annihilate others because of their unwillingness to do things "our" way.
America is a great country. I am so thankful I live here. I am not so loyal to our capitalist ways that often translate as exploitive to other countries, but I am BEYOND grateful and aware that I live in a land of opportunity.
Asians and Europeans who move here usually have learned English (as well as other languages) early on, unlike Americans who for some reason think that learning other languages (and using them regularly) compromises their national pride.
I think it is admirable that you are bilingual and that you have the ability to speak to non-English speaking Americans. I think more people should strive for that ability without thinking that it will diminish what it means to be American.
Interesting resources:
http://www.asian-nation.org/assimilation.shtml
"I paint my own reality." -Frida Kahlo
Sentiment
The blog was meant to reference the growing population of immigrants that are resentful and anti-American because they are being asked to learn the language and become US citizens. I think you took a defensive position on this because you assumed my message was "racist" or that I was implying that ONLY English be spoken. On the contrary, I actually happen to fully agree with you that Americans do need to require a second language be learned in school (the education system is a whole other topic) - Chinese would be a good one to learn now. However, the "official language" of this country should remain (as always) English. Sorry, but it is not a racist position if you expect someone from another country learn to speak the native tongue, since it was their choice to come here in the first place. Don't misunderstand, I also happen to agree we need to take a less narcissistic view and build a better cross-cultural education system. There are a lot of ignorant Americans completely unaware of the rest of the world and customs of other countries.
I did always appreciate seeing and hearing English in the countries we lived in. I grew up living in a different country every 2 years. In fact, I went to French kindergarten in Mali, Africa because that was the only available school at that time. My parents' friends thought I was a native girl (can't speak it now though). When we moved to Honduras, Bolivia, and Italy we were required to take the Spanish and Italian classes and learn the host-country history, yet all of the classes were taught in English so those children could apply to and go to US colleges (granted those were private schools).
Most foreign countries (more developed) have a lot of their businesses/signs/literature in English (i.e., Korea, Egypt, Italy) because they recognize it is a predominant worldwide language. I am not saying we should "force" or discourage another language, I simply stated that I resent the fact that when I am shopping in a grocery store (in my native country), that I encounter product with ONLY Spanish printed on the label, or that when I drive through a neighborhood I see ONLY Spanish speaking signs on the businesses - what message does that send? If a person CHOOSES to move here - they should understand they will need to integrate into their new environment, and not make it a "racist" issue because they are being required to understand the native language of their new home. I whole heartedly agree in maintaining your own cultural beliefs and native tongue (definitely makes us the America we are), and I LOVE and APPRECIATE having that where I live because it brings new ideas, food, education, and friendships. Bottom line is, the resentment is growing because there is a push for legalization and assimilation. And why shouldn't there be? AGAIN, the choice is theirs - why make this a new home if you're not willing to go through the process of being a US Citizen?
For reference, there was a very informatitve & unbiased survey conducted in 2002 by the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation regarding assimilation & language, http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/7052.cfm. Notice the first paragraph: "The concept of assimilation has been debated
extensively in the social science of migration since the
early 20th Century, but it is now broadly accepted as
a way to describe the ways that immigrants and their
off spring change as they come in contact with their host
society.1 In its current usage the concept of assimilation
does not imply any superiority in the host society’s views
or a particular value to the changes in attitudes and
behavior among immigrants across generation. Rather,
assimilation is now most useful as a means for describing
a social dynamic that is characteristic of this era in U.S. history."
I got that your blog was
I got that your blog was challenging what you perceive as resentful and anti-American immigrants, I just don't agree with your deduction that people who don't learn English quick enough or proficiently enough are anti-American. I have yet to experience a Spanish speaking American who doesn't want to learn to speak English and want to become a citizen legally (Desperately so, actually). The fact of the matter is that when you are here undocumented your options are few, and when your days are spent working in L.A. sweatshops (yes, L.A. sweatshops) 12-14 hours a day, and then you go home to take care of your family, it gets a little tough to sign up for English classes at the local Community College.
Also (please) correct me if I am wrong but the path to citizenship does not exist. It's a proposed, potential solution to undocumented immigrants, but that is about it.
I know it is strong language to say that someone's ideas or perspectives are racist, and I don't mean it as a personal attack, but I stand by my view that assumptions made regarding the circumstances and reasons non-English speaking Americans get stuck not speaking English are made out of ignorance.
I admittedly took a defensive position to some of the things you expressed but I was also responding to other replies too. I didn't gather that you hope for an English ONLY country, but other comments alluded to just that, and that is what gets my goat! I believe it was JustinCase who favored "forced assimilation" and most of my response was in reference to that point.
I know Assimilation theories quite well. I also believe that how sociologists define Assimilation is not indicative of how many Americans (generally speaking) hope for it to work out. For example:
Anglo-Conformity is the idea that there is a mainstream culture and language based in white American ideals that others are supposed to assimilate to. This theory is the most contested among socioligists.
Then there is the Melting Pot Theory which was a belief that we all bring who we are into the mix and we melt and mold together in a big happy American family. This theory reflects the reality of white Americans but non-white Americans never quite melted in the same way.
Then there is the Salad Bowl Theory where it is believed that we are mixed together as one unit but we retain our individual unique cultures, another theory that no longer holds much popularity but it doesn't quite reflect how individuals and communities do change when they migrate.
Segmented Assimilation (the theory that makes the most sense to me) is a newer theory that suggests that people assimilate (in the best sense of the word) to the culture in which the have direct contact and interaction with, in a way that makes daily functioning most possible (work, school, etc), and it is accomplished at a variety of stages for individuals and communities.
One's ability (or desire) to assimilate (depending on how you define assimilation) to the culture that allows for daily functioning in my opinion has nothing to do with being intentionally anti-American or resentful of America. that assumption is the core of what I have a problem with.
And I also don't get the resentment of products that are in Spanish only (or other languages). Isn't one of the benefits of capitalism free markets, and don't free markets allow for the free trade of goods and services from around the world? If there is a demand for products and that demand is met when that product is supplied, why should that be interfered with? It's not like whatever product you are in demand of will be overpowered.
I agree that people who come to the US are at an advantage in many ways when they speak English which is undoubtedly the dominant language in our country. But your expression of resentment and frustration (as well as the others) over hearing or seeing other languages caused me to think that economic, educational and cultural opportunity for all was not the motivation behind perspectives shared.
"I paint my own reality." -Frida Kahlo
I see where you are coming
I see where you are coming from but that wasn't the point at all... in my opinion, race has nothing to do with it. It is the waste that is the primary concern for me... the paper that is wasted printing government documents in five different languages is crazy. I think it's more racist to pick and choose the languages they print everything in... like you point out, what about the Koreans, Armenians, Russians etc. If we are going to print everything in Spanish then why not in every other language that's represented here? I think to streamline everything you must go with your most popular language and stick with it.
Schools SHOULD be teaching far more of world culture, foreign language, and world religion. We are the teenagers of the world and we do too much out of guilt and regret rather than move forward and evolve.
We are a land of immigrants but we have been here long enough that we are now "American" and we need to identify as such. I don't call myself a third generation Scottish American, I am simply American. That in no way forces me to forget my heritage, but it creates a "now" rather than live in the past of where my family came from.
When I was in LA I hired a nanny who was from Guatemala and she spoke English very well and was very proud of that fact. I also LOVED and encouraged her to speak Spanish with my kids.What a treat for them to learn that... We used to have long conversations about how she felt about all of these language issues, and she thought that by printing everything in Spanish and making it so easy for people to get by without speaking English, if the person didn't have the drive to learn a new language and join their new country, they found it easy not to. Is that racist? No, if I moved to another country and found a comfortable pocket where I didn't have to learn the language I don't think the sense of urgency would be there. Xinia was extremely frustrated when her countrymen would come here and not go through the same process she did to become a citizen and use the programs that she as a tax payer would pay for.
It's not forced assimilation, no one's going to come to anyone's house to enforce English being spoken, it is merely a choice. This doesn't even speak to those people who come here and want to be a citizen and jump through the many hoops that are required of them to do so...
"Love Well. Love Wisely."
www.JustInCaseInc.com
Race has everything to do
Race has everything to do with it! Especially when you consider facts like the U.S. is taking painstaking measures to secure the border between U.S. and Mexico in the name of national security, despite the fact that known terrorists crossed the U.S./Canada border to get here. Explain why we are not building a wall between here and Canada!
I know that seems unrelated to the initial post, but it isn't. We are making judgments and public policy about Spanish speaking Americans based out of irrational fear that one day America is going to be taken over by undocumented Spanish speaking criminals.
AND AMERICANS HAVE A HISTORY OF DOING THIS!!!
If we have a country that is made up of people who speak different languages I think it is humane to have necessary representation/information for them in our institutions. I can't imagine Ellis Island only having instructions of where to go next in English Only, and I don't believe for a second that getting arrested in France would land you in jail with a dictionary and "Bon Chance." And if it did, is our goal now to be like France?
"I paint my own reality." -Frida Kahlo
Ok, first I too totally
Ok, first I too totally disagree with building a wall between here and Mexico, we need to just enforce the laws we already have in place when it comes to illegal immigration. There isn't a wall between here and Canada because most Canadians aren't scrambling to get here.
I am making no judgments about Spanish speaking Americans. Spanish speaking Americans who have made the commitment to become a citizen and who are diligent to learn the native tongue. My point is that it's wasteful to print so many government documents in so many languages. And at the same time, I think it's MORE racist that the government pick and choose a few languages rather than print them in EVERY language represented here in the US. If you print one, you should print them all.
Ellis Island was a long time ago and the predominant language even then was English, but in order to create this melting pot, it was necessary to provide interpreters for people just arriving. When people arrive today, they usually have quite a bit of time to learn English when they arrive before they have to start taking citizenship classes. My cousin married a woman from Germany and she had already been here for 4 years on a student visa...
Now English is a predominant language and is considered the language of the US, so why should everything be printed and translated into just Spanish too?
As far as translators in the courts... of course they should be made available, but it shouldn't be the norm in an English speaking nation. That is a symptom of a much larger problem in our justice system.
As far as France goes, I was being a bit sarcastic, but the bottom line is, if a German came to France and worked there illegally and lived there beyond any kind of visa, he would find himself back in Germany so fast his head would spin. My dad has lived in both Germany and France and they are both VERY strict when it comes to documentation and working legally in either country. We are very loose with our borders and somehow we're racist if we tighten them up to secure the people who are here legally.
"Love Well. Love Wisely."
www.JustInCaseInc.com
Good Reply!
I liked your comments about a wall between the U.S. and Mexico, and you are 100% correct about working in Germany and France. They are very strict and sticklers for documentation and work permits. It's too bad the U.S. doesn't employ the same standards. No, I'm not "narrow-minded", I'm all for lending an helping hand to my fellow man and animals/birds (domestic & wild), however, we are a nation of laws, and we must uphold the law.
Great post Rachel!
Ellen R. Day
Designer, Activist & Directo
Peeper Day Designs
Friends of the Animal Kingdom, Inc
www.peeperdaydesigns.com
Touchy Subject
I am from Trinidad where we speak the "Queens's English not to be confused with "American English". My freshman year of college I was criticized for using the British pronunciation of words vs the Americanized version of the same word. I would get professors who would penalize me on written exams for spelling words such as flavor like flavour - which is how I was taught for almost 20 years! So to avoid failing my class because of one person's prejudice, I got on the computer, I changed the dictionary to "US - English" and killed the issue.
I personally get annoyed if I go to an organization and the person says to me " I don't speak English" and while I am fortunate to be able to communicate in at least 4 other languages, I will still request an English speaking person, although there is the likeliness that I CAN communicate in their language. Ultimatlely, it's about my comfort level, not theirs.
I learned Spanish and French and I can read Portuguese and Italian; I did it to keep me competitive so I would not be a stranger in a foreign country. And I am quite certain, if I did move to another country, for myself anyway, I would HAVE to learn the native language to function otherwise I would be lost. I would feel lost at the very least by the mere inability to communicate which would warrant me a stranger! Now, would I prefer to associate with only English speaking people? I agree, it would be easier, but it would probably render me ignorant.
The US, in an attempt to make our Spanish speaking neighbors comfortable, is making Spanish the new English. When I recruited staff for a temp agency two years ago, many clients requested Bi-lingual/Spanish speaking candidates,who incidently got paid more for being able to communicate in both languages. (Although some of them were clearly more Spanish than English speaking). So the non-Spanish speaking candidates were at a disadvantage! English became a minority requirement... What a reversal!
Many Spanish communities, stay amongst their own and so they use the language to keep their culture alive. But I do feel that any person, should learn the language of the place in which they live.
If you are going to print instructions in Spanish then you need to do it in Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Haitian creole, Italian and French as well. I don't think it is fair to show a bias,however, it is duly noted that Hispanics are one of the fastest growing minority population in the United States.
Even in Immigration you hear the instructions in English and Spanish!
As a matter fact, I believe, Mayor Bloomberg earlier this year established an initative to start putting instructions for items that have regular use (such as the Metro Card machines) in English, Spanish, Chinese, Korean and Haitian Creole to "accommodate" the country's 'popular' immigrants.
So what is the message?
Some would argue that making the "allowance" for persons whose native language is Spanish is more of an exception which can border edge seem like discrimination against English speaking people. I can't say that I disagree but indeed, if Spanish is the new English, it would still stand to reason that English was always predominant and needs to be learned.
xoxo Anje
"I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle, but if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best"
Marilyn Monroe
Totally Agree With You!
Great response! I agree if you are going to live in the United States you should learn to speak our language. My ancestors are from Ireland (Father's side) and Sweden (Mother's side). My paternal grandparents immigrated through Ellis Island (just like Cheryl's family) spoke Gaelic, but they learned to speak and read English. My maternal grandparents immigrated to the U.S. by way of Ellis Island before World War I. They learned to speak English, no, their English wasn't as good as mine, but they managed. They all spoke Gaelic and Swedish in their homes and neighborhoods. They taught my Mom and Dad their native language, but they learned English in school.
If you want to get technical, the original language spoken on the North American Continent were the many Indian tribes, Cherokee, Iroquois, Huron, Choctaw, etc.
Anje, you are correct and being from Trinidad and having traveled to many countries, you have first hand knowledge of different languages and cultures. Thank you for posting your reply.
Ellen R. Day
Designer, Activist & Director
Peeper Day Designs
Friends of the Animal Kingdom, Inc.
www.peeperdaydesigns.com
The native language....
Ok before I respond to the topic in general, I need to finish the reading but Ellen Day is correct, the native tongue were those languages spoken by the Native Americans. They were tribal languages, not English.
Overthinking it
Listen, the main point (which I think you keep missing) is that America is a native English-speaking country and anyone who chooses to move here is aware of that. You mentioned English as being the predominant language in the US, however, it is a WORLWIDE predominant language. It is to anyone's advantage to learn & understand that.
No one (that I remember) has stated Spanish-speakers need to run out and learn English NOW. The general consensus has been that those being asked to become legal and learn the language should do so without feeling like they are being discriminated against. I really think you're overthinking the topic (maybe you have your own experiences that make you feel this way), but it's really quite simple - move here, learn the native tongue. No one is saying give up your heritage/original language in the process.
Cheers! Have a good day.
I got your point
..but although it is the predominant language in the US it is not the predominant language in the world.
Actually, Chinese (with several of its dialects) is the most popularly spoken language in the World ( based on statistics in the last 5 years).... with runners up English, Hindi/Bengali followed by Spanish and then Arabic. The survey based the popularity of the language by the population numbers.
xoxo Anje
"I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle, but if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best"
Marilyn Monroe
misposted
Ooops, I meant my last post to be a response to beautymark's latest posting - so sorry.
In regard to English being most predominent, I guess that makes sense that Chinese would be first now. I've actually been considering taking on the task of learning Chinese - it is a rapidly growing and thriving economy.
I do get the point you are
I do get the point you are trying to make. I just disagree with what you say on many different levels. I do agree (and have said) that learning English enables people to succeed economically and academically, and enables people to participate in a larger society.
I disagree with your presumption that any significant number of immigrants resent the idea of speaking English or have something against America as a whole. That perspective does represent anyone I have ever met, and it is a perspective that paints immigrants as anti-American and that is what I think is an ill-informed and dangerous position, and one that fuels hateful attitudes against immigrants.
From what I have experienced and studied is that it's first generation immigrants who can't speak English. Second generation are almost always bilingual, and the third generation usually speak entirely English. This tends to be the trend across all immigrant groups.
And I don't think I was overthinking anything. Race, class, and ethnicity issues in America are intensely connected. You can't look at one with out considering the other, and you can't look at present issues of immigration without looking at historical aspects of it, unless you are just interested in venting opinion based, anecdotal soundbites which is fine. I do that all the time, but that's not the stuff that changes anything for the better nor does it bring truthful, comprehensive understanding of a problem (in my opinion.)
"I paint my own reality." -Frida Kahlo
correction
I meant to say "That perspective does NOT represent anyone I have ever met..."
"I paint my own reality." -Frida Kahlo
Oh where do I begin...
First of all, speaking the language is one issue by itself. I think we all agree that people living in the U.S. should learn English. My Panamanian boyfriend, my parents live in assistant from Ecuador, and pretty much everyone else I know all agree on this.
That does not mean as someone else pointed out that people should not be able to grocery shop for items native to their culture and labeled in their native tongue. So whether you are shopping at your local Koren market or you local Spanish market or wherever, what individual companies sell and what the consumers buy is supply and demand. It's not like they stopped selling Cheer that's all in English.
That also does not mean they have to "assimilate" into "our" culture. I think when you enter another culture it is necessary to respect it but that does not mean you have to entirely adopt it. Why should people give up their culture? That is what makes this a unique country, we can have MANY cultures.
As for the the Citizenship commentary, are you aware you can be in this country legally without becoming a citizen? For example, you could be here working for 15 years (have a green card) and while you could apply for and obtain citizenship, you don't need to for any particular reason. Perhaps people want to leave and go back to their country when they are done doing what they came here to do. Who knows. This is an individual choice. My point is simply that just because you aren't a citizen, doesn't mean you aren't here legally. My boyfriend is here legally and has been here for 14 years. He pays taxes, speaks the language far better than many educated Americans, and simply has not decided to apply for citizenship.
Last but not least, I think it's a bit on the elitist side to think we are the greatest country in the world. While I respect the fact that people have pride in their country and I think this is important, the reality is many other countries are doing some things better than the US. We no longer have the best education system. I believe we are currently 9th in world rankings of industrialized nations. Not impressive. Our health care is also very weak.
I do think that you should have to vote in English. I think if you can read and understand the language, you should not be able to vote. But other than that, I think you are missing the big picture. I don't want to press #1 or #2 to speak English but those are choices businesses make to make money.
That's my .02.
Well said. Especially the
Well said. Especially the point about being here legally and not being a citizen. I think those intricacies of immigration dynamics are sometimes overlooked in the debates.
I also liked the point you raised in regards to the mis-perceptions about some of the seemingly elitist viewpoints of the U.S. and the idea of transnational citizenship. I took a class with a prof who explained that when the Mexican/US borders are less strict we have less "illegal" immigrants because people actually want to go back and forth between Mexico and US, because of economic opportunity that is here and not there. When the borders were less strict people were more likely to go back and forth, and that was LEGAL! Now people set out to the U.S. and they stay here because they are afraid of never getting the chance to come back.
It's an absolute atrocity how the U.S. has dealt with Immigration issues regarding Mexico. The professor I took shared a favorite family quote, "We didn't cross the border, the border crossed us."-very interesting perspective.
Also, just as a side note, many "illegal" immigrants actually do pay taxes. They obtain social security cards (albeit illegally) in order to work and then they definitely pay into social security taxes that they never get back because they are never able to claim those benefits. It's like a dirty little secret that the federal government isn't complaining about.
"I paint my own reality." -Frida Kahlo
Enlightenment
It's nice to hear people exploring the topics that they are discussing in school. Our country has seemingly lost track of the fact that higher education is not just about getting a job. It's about creating enlightened people so that they know how to think! Keep up the good work
I have found this discussion in general to be stimulating and get me thinking in a way that I seem to be missing these days since all I talk about it fashion!
Why not then?
Okay, so if people are choosing to make America their home, then why not just apply to be a LEGAL citizen and contribute to their new home & make it count? We certainly have a lot of people trying to move here but (albeit legally or not), there aren't a lot trying to leave and make another country their home.
To those that have an opposition view of why it is important to be a US Citizen (and I do completely respect anyone for their views/opinions): Are you a US Citizen? Did you grow up in this country? Do you desire to live somewhere else, and if not, then why are you so adamant about defending something that is fundamentally breaking the rules/laws?
I praise the commentary on living/working in Germany & France - they do not tolerate illegal immigrants (why should we?). The same goes for Australia - they are another country made up of immigrants - they require all citizens learn to speak the native tongue. We are not an "elitist" country for expecting our citizens to understand the language. If we are such a "racist" and bad place to be, why are there still so many trying to come here (and sneak in for that matter)?
Cheers! Make it a positive rest of the week. I've enjoyed this and opposing views.
I think you are still missing the point....
People can choose to go work in another country for a period of time and then choose to go back to their own country. This happens a lot with people from other nations coming and Americans going to other nations. Just because you are in this country, working legally, doesn't necessarily mean you want to be here forever. If you apply for citizenship here, you generally lose your citizenship in the country you came from unless they offer dual citizenship. By doing that, you lose your opportunity to go back. Not everyone comes here out of desperation. Yes, there are benefits to citizenship but as far as I can observe the only thing you don't get with resident alien status is the right to vote.
So you keep referring to people "fundamentally breaking the rules/laws", there are PLENTY of non-citizens in this country here legally and breaking no laws.
And yes, I was born here and grew up here. I have traveled extensively. I definitely think there are other great countries in the world and would be open to moving to several European nations. I think they offer things that we don't get here and vice versa.
Missing stuff
There is a lot to read within this blog posting now, so I wanted to comment again that the intent of the original posting was meant for those who do not have an ambition of becoming legal or learning the language, yet do plan to live here the rest of their lives and (a lot - statistically speaking) do intentionally "buck the system" and then commit crimes, take advantage of the healthcare (without paying taxes), expect schools to teach in Spanish, etc. I'm not referencing anyone who is here working on a work visa or temporarily here. Like I mentioned, that's how I grew up - lived in 6 different countries, and visited more. My parents were government workers and never intended on becoming citizens of another country, but it was a requirement for my dad to take language classes when we went to a new country (as it was for us in school too). I do often think of working/living in a foreign country again (it beckons me), yet I do intend to comply with the laws & learn their language, yet maintain my US Citizenship.
To some, I think some of the original commentary and message was eventually misinterpreted or lost. I am pleased, though, to see the overall views here are all generally on the same page.
I think your initial post
I think your initial post was thoughtful, honest and raised a critical issue that is on the forefront of many people's minds. Even though I may not see what you see (ie: large amounts of people wanting to "buck the system") I thoroughly appreciate your boldness in talking about an issue that most want to talk about but are too afraid to "go there" because of how touchy of a topic it is.
I do think that the issues you brought up in the initial post are often discussed in generalizations and are not thoroughly or accurately researched or represented. I am not sure how you can report statistically who intentionally bucks the system, and I don't believe that people come here intending to commit crimes and leech off of social services that they don't pay into. I am not suggesting that doesn't happen, I just don't think that is what people intend on doing in the way it was expressed in the post.
Sometimes when talking about issues I am passionate about (like immigration) I get so overwhelmed with ALL the issues that encompass it which admittedly can make it seem like I am either not listening, or over-reacting. I know that has to be frustrating for people. I am working on harnessing that
After processing all the dialog here so far, a couple questions have emerged
1. What experiences/sources/statistics inform your opinion that there are people who don't have ambition to be legal, intend to take advantage of the system, who want to "take" but not "give"?
2. Is it possible that the sources of that information is questionable?
3. Do you think people come to the U.S. with the intent of being criminals?
3. How do you think economics plays into the decisions people make regarding learning English and moving/working/living/staying here?
I have truly enjoyed engaging in this dialog and I think the various tangents (no matter how unrelated to your initial post they became!) have added to the discussion.
I look forward to reading more of your posts and hearing further thoughts on hot topic issues.
"I paint my own reality." -Frida Kahlo
My mother was born in
My mother was born in Switzerland. I had the opportunity to go there some years ago to work. Taking German was a REQUIREMENT of being able to have a work visa. I got a real eye-opener when I went into a store and blithely rattled off "Sprechen Sie English?" and they said, "Nein." Luckily I was able to stumble through enough nouns to communicate what I had intended.
I understand wanting to retain a cultural/ethnic heritage. I understand wanting to be with people who speak the same mother tongue. But there is nothing wrong (and a lot of GOOD) with learning a 2nd language, be you native English-speaker or not.
LuAnn
Absolutely...
I agree 100%. I don't think anyone was disputing that fact.
Becoming a Citizen
To Beautymark, thank you for some of your comments. You have put on a great debate.
I suppose it would depend on the desire to become a Citizen - anything is possible if your will is strong enough. But the following is what I clipped from one of many credible & reliable web sites that clearly state the process by which one can live & work legally in the US:
"The process by which people from foreign countries become U.S. citizens is called naturalization. There are three steps in this process:
1) File an application.
2) Take a naturalization examination.
3) Participate in an Oath Ceremony
Not everyone, however, is eligible to become a naturalized U.S. citizen. A person must meet certain
requirements:
-Be at least 18 years old
-A lawful permanent resident for five years
-A person of good moral character
-Be able to understand, read, write, and speak basic English
-Possess a basic understanding of United States government and history
-Be willing to take an oath of allegiance to the United States
Additional eligibility details can be found on the Immigration and Naturalization Service web site. In addition, the INS has provided an online eligibility worksheet to help people determine if they are eligible to apply for naturalization."
I actually think there are a lot of natural US Citizens that don't have "basic understanding of the US government and history" and I think there are some who question their allegiance - both are sad to me, but such is life.
Thanks! True, much of the
Thanks!
True, much of the point you were making hangs on the desires of others to become citizens I suppose. The three steps you mentioned (as easy as they seem) are long, tedious, and expensive processes. And like you said, they are not guaranteed. People must meet the requirements, which when you look at them, are extremely subjective, which is very dangerous in my opinion.
You can (legally) be denied citizenship if you have fathered a child out of wedlock.
On the flip side, you can be granted citizenship if you are famous or have some kind of special skill.
People become nothing more than commodities.
Interestingly, most of the methods of obtaining information on citizenship is found online. There are still many people who do not know how to use a computer! I have a Masters degree and the INS website, paperwork, processes, etc look daunting to me! (and I've been filling out government apps/loan stuff/school forms etc. for YEARS!)
Have you ever seen the documentary "Made in L.A."? If not, you should check it out.
The other thing you mention which is an excellent point is the fundamental philosophy behind the concept of "Allegiance" and I think if we get to the bottom of that, our positions begin to make more sense.
I suspect that "Pledging Allegiance" to the U.S. is a privilege or honor for some. For me, it is uncomfortable. I would never pledge allegiance to anything as arbitrary as a nation. To me that feels like idolatry. What am I pledging allegiance to exactly? I don't belong to America.
I know this idea makes a lot of Americans unhappy, but I don't think this makes me a bad American. Sometimes I think others think it does.
I think those who do pledge allegiance to a nation have valid reasons for doing so and I would never suggest that they shouldn't do it. I just think that urging someone to pledge allegiance to a nation, or pitying them for not being able to, is like asking someone to believe in religion other than their own.
"I paint my own reality." -Frida Kahlo
Detention...
I only have a second but i think BeautyMark and I are long lost sisters....I have always felt that way about the pledge...I got a detention my Freshman year of HS because I wouldn't stand for the pledge. By law, they can't make you do it, particularly because of the line "one nation, under god". So I could have fought it in court. I didn't but I hear you sister!
;-.)
Kindred spirits for sure!
"I paint my own reality." -Frida Kahlo
I agree with you sacey0612.
I agree with you sacey0612. A very thought provoking blogg. Thanks for your sharing.